Wednesday, May 19

Lost: Season 6, ep. 16 Discussion

Instareaction (updated further below):

Spoilers ahoy.

We all knew it was coming, that Jack would take this step. In the end, the decision and what followed felt spare and quiet - a foregone conclusion rendered poetic in it's unavoidability. This is a point that the whole show has been building toward - a point wherein, depending on your point of view, Jack's need to fix things either transcends it's often-petty, daddy-issue-driven origins or succumbs completely to them.

What They Died For was a return to the edge-of-my-seat Lost I was hoping for. It gave us Answers, it gave us deeply character-rooted emotion, it gave us (at times on the nose) dialogue that confirmed Jacob's essential standing as the god of the Island, thematically speaking. It also confirmed some of my and your speculation from last week - that Jacob wanted to give these people a choice, because he never had one (and I like that he seems to believe this, yet has no problem with them having been brought to the Island), that only someone "like" Jacob can find the heart of the Island, that the Man in Black wants to return to the Light.

All of that and I haven't even gotten to Ben, who finally faces Widmore in what might have been great, but is instead really good, or the fact of this curiously-scrubbed Rousseau, or of Desmond's beating of Ben and the accompanying flashes, and of Ben's seeming turn back to the dark side which looks much like a suicide run. And what about Off-Island Locke's change of heart, and the prospect of Jack operating on him during the final episode? I haven't touched on Desmond, and how he's now Sheperding these Castaways toward some specific task, or how his dismissal of Ana Lucia ("She's not ready yet.") indicates that there's something here to the ideas of reincarnation and second chances that have been Second Snaking their way through these columns. And what about Richard? Is that it? Somehow I doubt it.

What I liked most about this episode of Lost was how it knocked away the most pressing pieces of character mythology and left us with 2 1/2 hours of television left to go. We know exactly what these people are fighting for now, and we know exactly what Anti-Locke really wants (we've suspected this part for a while). What the heck happens now? Presumably, Off-Island Jack is going to need to make a fateful choice after he and Locke remember their Island narratives. Desmond will descend into the Island's Underworld, perhaps acting exactly as Anti-Locke is hoping he will. Enough of this. Point is, I liked it. Can't wait to watch it again.

Terrific stuff. Finding it hard to concentrate. Perfect time to start writing, then. What did you think?

Edited to add:

I woke up this morning even more charged up about this episode. Everything about it - the surprisingly large amounts of jet-black humor, the suspense, the Answers given, the steps taken - feels correct, feels purposeful and moving and definitive and yet still-mysterious in so many ways. I love that there's every possibility that Jack can die now, since we've finally seen him take up the mantle. I love the possibility that Jack might decide to make his fellow Castaways protectors as well, turning the job of Jacob into a communal position. Most of all, I love the sense of open-ended possibility that this episode left us with. We're more sure than ever of what, generally, will be happening in the finale and yet we're also less sure then ever of how it will all play out. Glorious, I say.

....But that freaky, Willow-ish old lady who narrated the end-episode teaser? What in the heck was that about, ABC? Really? You go with what sounds like the voice of a 1,000 year-old dwarf grandmother who lives under a magical toadstool?

Original Post:

I have it on good authority that tonight's episode is very, very good.

Will that be enough to wash the sour taste of Across the Sea out of some folks' mouths? To be honest, I don't find that question very interesting. Having written way too much about last week's divisive episode I've found myself in a nice, comfy place about it and I cannot wait to jump back into the main storyline with the surviving (sadface) Castaways.

Yet, I can also easily wait. I sort of want to wait forever. I'm at the point now that I always arrive at when I read something I love - if the book is good, really really good, then I almost always stop with around 100 pages to go and take some time off. I don't like it when good things end, even if that ending is also a good thing.

I'll be back in here after the episode airs with a very brief InstaReaction. My week is time-crunched up the wazoo on Thursday and Friday, so in order to get the column to you by week's end I'll need to jump right into it.

Enjoy the show!


  1. I'm with you- wonder if part of the plan wasn't this hiatus from the main story line- I still doubt that last week added much to the overall story, but was a nice bit of sherbert... before the main course.

  2. MMorse - great columns, love to read them. One question, and it's totally divorced from tonight's episode, though is certainly part of Lost: The Rewatch.

    It's been said that there was some "secret" appearance by the Monster in season 2 by Darlton. Any idea as to the when/what/where of it? Lostpedia only lists The 23rd Psalm as the episode with the Monster, and unfortunately I've been unable to find it anywhere else.

  3. Roder,

    Two possibilities off the top of my head: The Monster was actually the Hurley Bird or the "secret appearance" in Season 2 was the Monster appearing as dead people, like Yemi.

  4. Yes, Yemi. That is exactly what came to mind regarding the "secret appearance". We all have the confirmation now, that Christian was Smokey as well so ever since the beginning he was there toying with our castaway friends.

    I have chatted with someone who attended the Lost event the other day. I got basic spoilers, no details, and know we all should be quite happy tonight(and also very sad ... seeing that this is the last new regular episode). It has me very, very curious.

  5. I'd agree it was Yemi, as well as Hurley's friend Dave - who very aggressively tried to get Hugo to off himself in season 2.

  6. Great episode. Though I just about lost my mind when they went to commercial after the gang showed up around Jacob's fire.

  7. So, uh, is Richard dead?

    I'd say that episode both set things up verrrry nicely for the finale AND retroactively made "Across the Sea" more resonant.

    Hey, was anyone else getting nervous for Jack's safety when he was hesitating to drink Jacob's holy water of immortality? I half-expected someone to take him out as he went to drink.

  8. Nice!
    Know a few Lost purests will want to view Across the Sea in an earlier position during re-views, but can't help thinking it was a nice break in the narrative, and a helpful glance at the backstory of the Island, before What They Died For. Understanding what guardianship entails for the candidate makes the choice Jack makes seem more poignant, and sort of heartbreaking(from our vantage). And yeah,lol,gotta agree with the Colonel. That moment Jack takes the god-cup from Jacob was excrutiating. Was waiting for all hell to break loose, and even thought I detected a quizical expression in Jacob's eyes just before Jack drank.
    Now I'm on lockdown mode in anticipation of Hurley and Sawyer's demise. Hoping it wont occur, but darn well know they're going to be throwing fastballs all night Sunday. Best case: Hurley becomes Island consigliere, replacing Richard-Smear. Worst, he is chased by the MIB animated corpses of every bucket of Mr. Clucks he's ever consumed, straight over a cliff.

  9. When Hurley commented that he wasn't interested in taking Jacob's place (I can't remember his exact phrasing), I was struck by the way he said it. It was very un-Hurley-like. I have the feeling that means something.

    Richard....I hope he isn't dead. It would seem a waste as I believe he has more to contribute to the story.

    Ben's potential "suicide run" would be very predictable, but I do feel that is where he is heading. I enjoyed seeing him happy with Alex and Danielle.

    Lapidus....still dead.

    Sawyer, the reluctant hero has a big part left to play. I so hope he and Juliette get that cup of coffee.

    Looking forward to Sunday, and I am sooo grateful my boss moved our training to Tuesday so I can still have Monday off to sleep and bask in the Lost afterglow!!!!

  10. Ok elsewhere and i think here, it has been suggested that Jacob is something of a tool- I'm with you...
    Mind you, I get the metaphor for life etc, but seriously... I'm with Sawyer... what gave him the right to pluck these people out of their lives?
    He suggests that he is giving the pretense of choice of saying- If i have to explain what is right or wrong, that defeats the purpose...
    but what about all the other "candidates" who had NO real choice?

    And back to the real question- others have suggested that the candidates had to be "losted" as Jacob implies that their lives sucked...
    why were others crossed out then? Kate just because she stole Aaron?
    Why not Ben, why not Miles?

    I think its all bologna, which makes Jacob as much of a dork as MiB...

  11. Great episode, one of my favorites this season.

    I like to think that Ben is conning the Smoke Monster at this point. It may be wishful thinking, but it would seem to fit with Ben's character - getting played by someone over the course of decades would not sit well at all with Ben, and it's hard for me to imagine him not wanting to get a bit of revenge on Smokey. If winning his trust involves popping off Charles Widmore, well, that was probably icing on the cake for Ben.

    He seemed very tightly wound (even for Ben) during the porch scene, which could be attributed to him essentially giving up, but I'm going to go with the fact that he's processing the fact that he's trying to con a smoke monster that just threw an immortal guy 50 feet into the air.

  12. Once again, brilliant! The way these writers can sway us with the stroke of a pen. We hated MIB, we sympathized with him, we thought Jacob was a dope, we love him again, and what about Ben. I feel like a pancake, flip flopping with every episode.

    I've watched a lot of television in my lifetime, Lost has some of the greatest most moving scenes I have ever seen. It's downright beautiful at times.

    This epi reassured me of a great finale to come.

    Your column=Lost enhanced

    Thank you,

  13. @Morse: Yes! What the hell was with that voice over? It sounded like Zelda Rubenstein (RIP) narrating a trailer for the next Narnia or Harry Potter flick. I half-expected Disney to follow up with a commercial for a "Lost"-world theme park (come to think of it, that might not be a bad idea ... )

  14. “Great episode. Though I just about lost my mind when they went to commercial after the gang showed up around Jacob's fire.”

    I know!

    “So, uh, is Richard dead?”

    I sure hope not. If they take him out like that I think people are going to be disappointed – I will be.

    “I'd say that episode both set things up verrrry nicely for the finale AND retroactively made "Across the Sea" more resonant.”

    I agree. Was really happy about that fact.

    “Understanding what guardianship entails for the candidate makes the choice Jack makes seem more poignant, and sort of heartbreaking(from our vantage).”

    Couldn’t agree more, RAR. That aspect of the scene was my favorite part about it. There’s a subtle sense of sacrifice to the scene. Jack’s willingness to step up and make that sacrifice moved me. Now the questions become: was that sacrifice worth making (all signs point to ‘yes’)? Will Jack’s new status make him Target Number 1 for Anti-Locke and Caliba – err, Ben? Will Jack die before the end of this show, now that his ascendancy is complete? And will we see the world through Jack’s new eyes? Because I am DYING to get a little more about what, exactly, being “like Jacob” means. Based on this episode, I’d guess that part of it involves Island Omniscience. Which could be dramatized incredibly, or with incredibly cheesy CGI. I’m hoping, really hoping, for the former.

    “Best case: Hurley becomes Island consigliere, replacing Richard-Smear.”

    I hope so. I hope that the end of the show in some way involves/glances toward the idea of Jack “recruiting” all of his Castaway friends to form a community of protectors. It’d sum up so much about the show.

    “When Hurley commented that he wasn't interested in taking Jacob's place (I can't remember his exact phrasing), I was struck by the way he said it. It was very un-Hurley-like. I have the feeling that means something.”

    What do you think it means?

    “Ben's potential "suicide run" would be very predictable, but I do feel that is where he is heading.”

    This sounds like it would be disappointing to you, but I’m thrilled that they’ve kept Ben’s essential unknowability in play, and in play convincingly, this far into the show’s end-game. It speaks worlds about his character arc and about this show’s ideas of redemption in general.

    “Lapidus....still dead.”

    I have zero problems with this, personally. If they’re going to pull a surprise reveal on us in the finale I’m hoping it’ll be a Richard reappearance. Lapidus can stay where he is.

    “Sawyer, the reluctant hero has a big part left to play. I so hope he and Juliette get that cup of coffee.”

    There’s little chance that this isn’t going to happen. And the fact that it won’t happen until the finale suggests that the Second Snake is still, in some sense, alive and kicking!

    "Mind you, I get the metaphor for life etc, but seriously... I'm with Sawyer... what gave him the right to pluck these people out of their lives?"

    This is exactly what the show seems to be wanting you to ask. Is this “right”? Is this “good being”? What’s brilliant about this? The fact that personal beliefs color how we perceive Jacob and his apparent mission.

    You’re absolutely correct to question the “right” of Jacob to do what he does. But what gives a government the “right” to go to war? What gives “God” the right to care about us/watch over us/create us? What gives Science the leeway to change our lives in ways that we don’t necessarily want, or need? What gives ANY authority it’s right? And what should our response be to Deterministic systems that provide some choices while maintaining an overall-illusionary sense of Ultimate Choice?

  15. “He suggests that he is giving the pretense of choice of saying- If i have to explain what is right or wrong, that defeats the purpose...
    but what about all the other "candidates" who had NO real choice?”

    What about them, to quote Jacob’s words to Ben? Didn't most of them end up being the causes of their own suffering? Didn’t they all have choices leading up to their arrival which would have made them happier, more content, and thus, ineligible for Candidacy?

    At what point do we have to concede that none of these people would have been on the Island at all, had they lived their pre-Island lives in ways that gave them purpose and meaning and contentment? That’s what Jacob told the Candidates last night – he picked them because they needed the Island as much as it needed them. And he’s inarguably right about that. How would Sawyer’s life have ended, had he NOT crash-landed on the Island? It would have ended badly, in all likelihood, with our favorite con man bleeding out in an alley, or locked in jail again, or pursuing Cooper ‘til they were both dead, literally and/or figuratively.

    “why were others crossed out then? Kate just because she stole Aaron?”

    It’s not about her stealing Aaron. It’s about her making the choice to become a mother, and Jacob’s respect for that choice. Once that choice was made, Jacob took her name off. Not because she stole something, but because she chose a “better” life for herself when she left the Island. She began to live her life for the life of another.

    Jacob removes her name because no mother should have to make the choice to leave behind a child, but he also tells her that the choice is still hers if she wants it. That’s kind of beautiful, in my opinion.

    “I like to think that Ben is conning the Smoke Monster at this point.”

    I like to think so too, Katie. I’m fairly certain that Ben’s committed himself to a suicide mission here. He’s gotten his vengeance on Widmore, and now he knows that Anti-Locke has no intention of leaving him the Island. It’s a great place to have moved this character to – a place of awareness of the possibility of forgiveness and Tabula Rasa, and of simultaneous awareness that such a thing for such a man as he is difficult/impossible to accept.

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  17. Thank you, mommaleonard!

    @Colonel: No idea. It was BIZARRE. Love the idea of a Lost theme park. Apparently, there's a group of fans who've petitioned Disney to make Tom Sawyer's Island into "Lost Island."

  18. @Morse: "I hope so. I hope that the end of the show in some way involves/glances toward the idea of Jack “recruiting” all of his Castaway friends to form a community of protectors. It’d sum up so much about the show."

    Exactly my thoughts, hopes for the fate of the castaways. Communion, shared purpose, "Live together, die alone." The more I think about it, the more it makes sense ... and the more chills I get.

    As for Ben's suicide run, I think this is where his arc is going, too, and I wonder if he's going to get a Darth Vader-esque moment of fatal redemption.

  19. Sorry for the botched comment. I agree Morse, the way Kate was treated in this episode made me happy - the writers gave her interesting things to say, and they gave her an honorable reason for not being a candidate. It gave Kate a kind of agency and independence that she hasn't had for a very long time, even though the writers tried in various ways. It's to a lesser extent than Jack, but I think the writers have done a relatively nice job in making her character more likable this season.

    @ The Colonel: I would absolutely ride a Magic Light Cave log flume that suddenly morphed into a smoke monster roller coaster.

  20. JDR22 Here...

    I just finished watching the episode on my lunch break (as was rudely interrupted during a few scenes) and I really, really liked this episode.

    I need to watch it again, because I know I missed things, but I was quite pleased with my first viewing. What a change from last week. It did put Across the Sea in a slightly better light, but this was leaps and bounds a better episode.

    I'm stoked for The End, which is only FOUR days away!!

  21. I was really happy with this episode. Maybe overly so after last week, but it was just a damn good episode, and some very nice setup for sunday.

    I liked the scene toward the end with Jack and Locke in his office. I liked the old Man of Science, Man of Faith discussion again, and the Jack paraphrasing Eko's "Do not mistake coincidence for fate" line, also spoken to Locke. I'm sure since Locke is at least somewhat hip to what's happening now, he appreciated that too.

    I really enjoyed the hell out of the scenes with Desmond, particularly toward the end. Seeing him stride out of the van, put on his jacket like a badass, and then tell Kate to get prettied up for the concert was just amusing as hell. Hurley being apparently all caught up was cool too, I started smiling as soon as I saw his car parked beside the van.

    But at the same time, since we still have no idea what he's up to, it could seem like fun and games now, with the whimsical music and all, but things could go very wrong in a few days.

    In one of the first few episodes, when Sayid was lying dead in the temple, Miles seemed like he was hearing something from him for a moment. I figured they'd mention it some time in the next few episodes, but it was never brought up again. I'm curious if that will come in to play in the finale, or if maybe that was just meant to be just a weird, somber moment from the guy who talks to dead people .. saying goodbye or something.

  22. Is it just me or did the scene where Jack is drinking from the cup have an indiana jonesesque soundtrack in the back?

  23. Okay, may need to vent a little. Hopefully it doesn't detract from the flow of discussion here. But is anyone else feeling a bit cold towards where things are going? I couldn't put my finger on it until today but I think in an episode titled "what they died for", we didn't really get a satisfying answer.

    I'm gonna throw away the mythology here and talk about character, which is what the writers have always stressed is what this show was about. So throw out smoke monsters and magic streams and such. We haven't been given the answers that matter on a emotional basis in regards to character motivations. When the show started it was about survival. About escape. Slowly it became about answers. Answers that have not been presented. Right now, everyone is lost (no pun intended) and even having Jacob spell it out for them, it still feels like none of them really understand or maybe even believe all the circumstances leading to this finale. You could argue it's a dissection of the concept of faith and you wouldn't be wrong in doing so, but is that enough to motivate our characters? Does Jack have a true understanding of what he is getting into? Cause I sure as heck don't. And as a viewer, I know more about the nature of things then he does. To me, if this is about a showdown between the Man in black and Jacob, given their origins, is that dramatically compelling? In my heart of hearts the answer is no. As if the show has become less and less about these castaways. More about the myth.

    Forget all the fun of over analyzing the clues. Is it really a worthwhile journey if after six years our castaways find themselves dieing for a cause that no one really understand? Not even the viewer? I'm finding I have a hard time connecting with the castaways because they are so willing to follow the leader. Even Sawyer. And I suspect all of us thought that by this point we'd have the full story on everything. But we really don't. I posted before about how they keep skirting the issue of the true nature of the island itself. And therefore all the answers are hollow if they don't tell us what it is. Cause otherwise we depend on the word of Jacob and the Man in Black, and they both seem to be very selective about what answers they provide. They say it's this or that. It's good or bad. And we are not presented with any kind of evidence one way or another. So all we really have driving us is the characters and their motivations. And those have kind of dissipated with the deaths of so many. Now it seems they will fight for their lives for a cause that is not really defined. The world may end is all they know. But they have no real way of knowing that, do they?

    I'm not angry really. Just more sad that the finale won't really make me care as much as I hoped. Maybe the deep philosophical concepts presented aren't enough for me to care. If Jack really knew the consequences of MIB leaving. If they really had answers as to what would happen. If they were indeed going off to stop him and save the world because they had been shown what would happen. Then it would matter to me.

    Haha I don't need it that black and white. But still, it's hard to relate and project yourself into a story where no one seems to be acting like a normal human being and asking the same questions we are week after week.

  24. JDR22 Here...

    @ Nick - I disagree with most of what you said (and I was unhappy with Across the Sea). This episode did something important for me: it made me care more about the mythology because the characters now care about it.

    I like where the Sideways is going, and things just feel RIGHT to me going into the finale. I now realize that the thing that makes all the mythology/crazy plots work are the characters. Spending a week without them made me realize how important they are.

    For some reason, Jack caring about being protector of the "light" makes me care about it, where last week I was much more ambivalent towards it.

    As far as what they died for? Well, if anything, their deaths catalyzed the remaining Losties to fight the MiB. Jacob essentially said that they died protecting The Island, which we pretty much knew already. This doesn't bother me.

    Everyone who was brought to the Island needed it. Think about Jin and Sun: they wouldn't have had Ji Yeon, or a loving marriage for that matter, without having crashed on the Island. Yes, they endured a lot of hardship, separation and ultimately death, but they were better people because of it. If their experiences transfer to the Sideways, and they have a chance to live and apply what they gained from the Island, that would be beautiful.

    Now, I do want to know what happens to the "trapped souls" who have died on the Island. When the MiB is defeated, do they move on to heaven/the Sideways? Do they remain trapped?

    At any rate: last week I was unsure, today I'm more excited than ever for The End.

  25. Morse, et al

    I think another reason Jacob originally scratched off Kate for becoming a mother was that he'd seen what happened the last time an adoptive mother was the guardian of the island, and was understandably concerned about repeating that.

  26. @Tooblekane, on Miles/Sayid: I remember Miles saying to Sayid that he sensed that Sayid was, in fact, D-E-A-D. Not sure if that helps you at all. I have a nagging feeling that is probably about as far as they're going to go with that particular question.

    @Colonel/Morse: I'm totally with you guys on the idea of having a larger group of "protectors" beyond just Jack. It would seem to mirror Season 1 perfectly, the ole "live together, die alone" mantra. Beyond that, it just seems to fit most with what I've come to expect from this show. Thinking about the fact that the creators had a distinct final image in mind back when the show started, I wonder what they could have conceived of as the ending to show back in Season 1. The theme that seems to permeate that season is the "live alone, die together" mantra. I've always felt that the show kept hinting at a singular protector-type figure as the key to the show's mysteries; yet it never really felt like the show was going to arrive at the point where one person would have to take responsibility (that would seem an all-too-simple answer to a show filled with ridiculously complicated questions). This a long way of saying that, I really do feel like the show will end at a place where the "responsibility" of the "protector" will end up being shared between Jack and the other castaways.

    Think about it: Jack's greatest flaw has arguably always been his inability to let others help him. He's never been able to rely on anyone other than himself. His journey this season, in many ways, has been to finally shut up and listen to what other people are saying. His shift towards being a more inclusive understanding individual, a fundamental change in his character, is arguably what has made him the best candidate for Jacob's position, what made him stand up and take the responsibility of protecting the Island--a responsibility that he's fought from the beginning.

    More than that, think about the relationships between the castaways. Is Kate just going to let Jack run off and get killed by the Man in BLocke? No matter how crazy and ridiculous she may think this all is, that doesn't change the fact that she cares for Jack deeply, irregardless of his flaws. Sawyer's growing guilt seems to suggest a change in his character as well, especially apparent in the resignation in his voice after his crack about Jack taking the job. Sawyer seems to recognize the odd importance of Jack's decision; in some ways, you could say that Jack is to Sawyer now as Locke was to Jack in previous seasons. Hurley? I agree that his comment sounded strangely, un-Hurley-like. But then again, he seemed flinch when the camera focused on him as Jacob describes the candidates off-Island, pre-Island as "flawed." It seemed to me like Hurley's innate self-doubt (which seems to me like his major thematic "flaw," even though Hugo is deeply loved by this fan) eeking its way out onto the surface. Hurley has never been the leader, never wanted to be; he's always been a better advisor (consiglieri, anybody? I totally agree). All in all, the show DOES seem to be pointing towards a more inclusive group of protectors rather than one single Island god.

    Anyway...that's all I have right now. Sorry if it makes no sense. This episode really helped clarify a LOT of theories that have been rolling around in my head, especially about the nature of what it means to be the protector of the Island. Can't wait to sound crazy in public talking about it. Haha. surreal. It's going to be big. SUNDAY!

  27. Maybe I over simplify things- to me.. if you are ASKED to do something, you can do it or not and take responsibility etc.

    JDR plopped down:
    "As far as what they died for? Well, if anything, their deaths catalyzed the remaining Losties to fight the MiB. Jacob essentially said that they died protecting The Island, which we pretty much knew already. This doesn't bother me."

    It does bother me quite a bit. Its one thing to suggest that you are beholden to tradition or God or whatever overarching moral claims you want to hold yourself to, but to never be given the chance to know that you had the opportunity.

    When were Sayid, Sun and/or Jin offered the chance to be the candidate? did they die for the island? protecting it? doubtful, did they for each other, for the community- YES

    where am i going with this, i dunno, but i still think Jacob, as portrayed is a bit of a jerk

  28. Sidenote- after rewatching most of last season when Flocke first came on the scene, I think the producers made a huge mistake not being clear with Terry OQuinn about the character. You can see he was clearly treating "locke" as a reborn character, not as Mib MASKED as locke... it makes the changeover, once it happens, once it is clear... kinda startling... thoughts?

  29. Katie,

    I have to agree, for once: This episode was the first time in a long time that I've been happy with Kate's role on the show. Evangeline Lilly is a compelling actress when she needs to play some degree of vulnerability, and it was nice to finally be reminded of that this episode. I think that's why so many of us turned on her in season two or three--they were writing her in ways that the actress couldn't really make us connect with.

    That said, it was just one episode of good material. When she asked Jacob why her name had been crossed out, I was still hoping he'd say, "Because you're the worst, Kate."

  30. Nick, you're not alone. I find myself agreeing with your opinions here again.

    Two comments regarding being a parent and a candidate:

    (1) I thought Jacob could detect that Kate was "with child", not just Aaron's foster mom.

    (2) Weren't Sun and Jin parents? Doesn't that give them a free pass on the candidate gig, crossing their name off the list? Would have been nice to do that before they died underwater.

    JDR22: I guess you need to burn away the ashes of people who die on the island before they're gone gone? Or maybe that ghostbusting method only works for Jacobians (designated by those specters who pick age appropriate apparitions).

  31. Katie, forgive my poorly chosen words: I didn't mean "I agree with you for once," I meant that "I, too, liked Kate this episode, for once."

  32. I don't have anything profound to add. I agree that the voice-over woman from the finale teaser was silly. It honestly took me out my little Lost dream world and made me go, Who in the world is that supposed to be?!!

  33. No worries, gravyboat! I figure that was what you meant.

  34. JDR22 Here...

    @ Todd Lyden - Sayid, Sun and/or Jin didn't live long enough to be given the chance to become a candidate, just like everyone else who died (or was crossed off the "list"). Had they survived the sub attack, they would have been given the choice just like Sawyer, Hurley, and Kate.

    Yes, they absolutely died for each other/community, but they also died protecting the Island. Jacob brought all of them there as potential candidates, and the ultimate candidate's job is to protect the Island (and therefore the world). The MiB killed them because they were potential protectors, and they were a threat to his escape from the Island. They may not have been aware of it yet, but it doesn't change why they died.

    That said, I agree that Jin chose to die with Sun (and for no other reason), and that Sayid died protecting his friends. That's indisputable. But the question is "what" did they died for, not "why" did they choose to die. That stems back to why they were on the Island to begin with.

    I agree that you need to have a choice, which they would have had if they survived. Now, is that fair? No. That's not the question, though.

    All I know is this: while not all of our Losties have had wonderful lives because of the Island, all of them have grown because of their experiences. They were all looking for something they couldn't find, and the Island offered them that elusive "something".

    At this point I'm thinking that MMorse's Second Snake Theory is in play, because the only way to make all of this worth it is if they can take these experiences and actually carry on living and enjoying their lives. If death on the Island means birth in the Sideways (or something similar), it would put "what they died for" in a whole new light.

    Yes, they were all brought to the Island against their will. No, not everyone was given a choice. Yes, everyone will benefit from having been to the Island. I feel it will have been worth it, death and all.

    I understand what you're saying, but I see things a bit differently. Is it how I pictured the show ending? No, but that's not exactly a bad thing. Based on the events of Season 6 and "What They Died For", I feel like we're going to get a satisfying character conclusion.

    We'll find out soon enough.

  35. Hmmmm ... I have kept silent for a few days, trapped in thought about all of this. Everything everyone has written is interesting, to say the least.

    Agreements - Ben is on a suicide mission, conning Smokey. Richard cannot be dead, that would anger me if he went out that way. I think the explaination of why the Kwons (and all the others) died was explaned correctly. Even though those character did not know the reasons themselves. They all had reached a better place in their life just for being on the island. The Kwons marriage was in shambles before the island, they found a couple years ago that they could not live without each other. Jack making the protectorship of the island a commune is a great theory to which I agree. The Kwons, why weren't their names scratched out as soon as they became parents? It worked for Kate, and it wasn't really her child. A child that was supposed to be explicitly raised by Claire.

    I agree partially to what Nick said whereas I said before, these episodes seem a bit rushed, by answering some of our long lasting questions. However, that said, I also stated before that some questions should not be answered, so that we can interpret the "theories" ourselves, keeping the myths to be just that, and making for some great discussion.

    Disagreements - I do not think at all that Flock at the beginning should have been any other way. He needed to act as closely to Locke being "reborn" to make it convincing to the characters he interacted with. For us the viewer, he did seem a bit "non-Locke" because he had more determination and confidence than the original Locke. Richard noticed the difference when he first spoke with him. I also do not think we will get any more answers really to the myths of the island. This reason is due to the fact all the characters that could explain said myths are dead and gone now, besides MiB. I am not sure his character will be in a place to explain any more than he already has.

    The one question I would love answered would be the ashes that created all of those circles, around the cabin and the ones used around the temple. Who's were they, and where did they come from?

  36. JDR22 Here...

    @ Darth - Some good observations. I agree and disagree with the same things you do, and agree that "Flocke" was properly portrayed.

    You say this: "I also do not think we will get any more answers really to the myths of the island. This reason is due to the fact all the characters that could explain said myths are dead and gone now, besides MiB. I am not sure his character will be in a place to explain any more than he already has."

    I mostly agree, with the exception of one person: Eloise Hawking. She is a character who seems to know an awful lot (at least about the timelines), and perhaps she could be a source of illumination in the finale.

    Two days left!!!

  37. @JDR - I remembered Eloise, but left her out as I do not think she will answer any of the myths. However, I do agree with you that she does most likely hold the key that will un-Locke the 2 timelines ... not so much about the island itself unfortunately.

    I am certainly going to miss these discussions. Looks like next week we will all be saying our goodbyes. RIP Lost!

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  39. I also wanted to add something I found hilarious, pertaining what we know... The DVD/BD Box Set of Lost: The Complete Series says on the cover: "All The Mysteries Will Be Revealed"

    Funny. Can we sue for false advertising?

  40. JDR22 Here...

    @ Darth - Sue the ABC marketing department. They've been banging that drum all season during the promos.

    That said, they may include extras on the DVD/Blu-Ray that will answer all the mysteries (they're already working on a sort of "Missing Pieces" bonus feature to explain mysteries they couldn't get to on air).

    It doesn't say "All The Mysteries Will Be Revealed During The Actual Show", so they might win on a technicality.

    Then again, a mystery for you may not be a mystery for me...